Any suggestions/thoughts/book recommendations for a newby? I have absolutely 0 knowledge as far as programming works.
I saw the Head First book on amazon and was wondering about it.
Think it will be good for someone who knows absolutely nothing about programming?

I hate those books. They teach you how to write code, not how to design software. If you don’t have a good basis, you’ll never develop anything other than really bad software.

Any book/Website/Tutorial suggestions?

The Pragmatic Programmer. Code Complete.

Thats… from journeyman to master. And so not really a good first book, huh?

He asked for my book recommendation. The truth is that for coding, most developers don’t read books anymore. Theory and design are the areas where books are still really relevant as a format.
But most people DID read one book to learn how to program whatsoever in the first place. Which is what he’s asking for. That first book.

I suppose it depends on your goal. If you want to be able to write one simple program in one language, by all means, buy the “teach me this language in 5 minutes” book, hack it together, and be done with it. If you want to learn how to write software, design is more important, and you should start learning concepts like DRY right away.
No. You need to play around with basic logic and write some simple programs before reading a book that is supposed to take you from intermediate to advanced.

Hence my hello world link.

Fine, google “beginning <whatever language>”

My complaint with those books is that they dive into straight into things that you shouldn’t be learning, until you have a better understanding of what the hell you’re doing. So people end up copying samples in the books to accomplish what they want, and hacking a ridiculously bad application together. Those books lead to bad software.
The only way to learn to program is to accomplish little tasks. You don’t need, and shouldn’t be worried about, more advanced concepts while you are doing that.
I bought Head First Java when I was younger starting out…

I thought it was pretty good. It seemed like it more/less encompassed my CS I/II classes (which were in Java), and I much preferred it to the book required for those classes.

You will still probably have questions/trouble with some of the concepts, but there are plenty of places on the net that can answer them better and with more detail than a book.

I”m a senior doing CS, and I kinda feel like most of my schooling could have been learned via reading and/or asking questions on various forums. Mainly what it did was push me to actually WRITE code (which is what it takes in the end) but I feel the most pertinent topics to actually coding in the real world were learned by myself in jobs, or from listening to other software developers… not in a classroom or in a book.
Well so far I am looking at and .

I also thought about one but it is from 2002 and I think it might be out of date.

I agree, and that’s my point about the head first books. They’re very much oriented toward moving from “I’ve never seen this language” to “I’ve written an application that does something useful” in as short a span of time as possible. Which isn’t really a good way to learn a language, let alone learn how to program.
Actually, thats the only way to learn a language or how to program thats worth a crap. Otherwise people will give up. They need to apply what they are learning to solve real problems. Your complaint is that people don’t learn more. Thats fine. But these books form a good introduction, and your books don’t.
just a side note, if you are a college/university student right now a lot of schools offer free access to online resources. for instance the library at my university has a subscription to safari books online which is loaded with programming books that you can read for free. anyone who is a student should check it out to see what their school offers.

I suppose it depends on the person more than the book. My complaint is that those books lead directly to bad software.

Honestly, I think it is much better to first get a grip of a language by actually putting it into practice writing simple programs for yourself first. Only once you know the language fairly well would I bother with reading up about the more advanced design concepts etc. Until you get to a good level there will be absolutely no need for you to learn them and they may mean nothing to you since you’ve never coded before.

Most people, unless they are really driven, motivated or stubborn will need to see some results (like writing various applications) when learning something or they will just give it up as being too hard/slow/boring. Getting an intro book is the way to go imo.

If you don’t know how to write code…. then how can you design a good software piece?

Both are great books and sitting in my collection but they are not intended for someone who has never written code before.
You need to learn to code before you can develop software just like you need to learn how to use the tools in your workshop before you build yourself some furniture.

The head first books teach you how to code and they do it well. They give you a strong base for developing software which no book can teach you how to do which you learn through practice and mentors(IMO)
I order the Head First book and Download the Visual Studio 2008 Express from MS. Cant wait for the book to show up. Luckily I have allot of Devs at work that I ca bug for help/advice.
You should have a basic “coding for idiots” book but combine it with Code Complete or Pragmatic Programmer.

I suggest doing the following:
Begin learning syntax and then look for chapters out of one of the two style books that relate to the syntax you just learned.

Really though, if you are working for a company with software developers you should probably look into having the company put you through some continuing education programming classes. Look for something taught by a person who is working in the industry (sometimes they may want you to write to “their style” but otherwise you will get an idea of what you can expect).

Syntax == the easiest part of programming language.

The biggest bitch is learning all the little API’s, frameworks, packages etc. and then actually knowing when and where to apply them.
Hey, just saw this thread. I know it’s old but… I wanted to jump in and say the Head First books have a lot of information and they are worth the money. You just have to get past some of the retarded things they say. Also, this book was helpful to me
I’ve sat down to learn manys a programming language, but by far the most beneficial stuff I have ever learned is HTML & CSS, Javascript and any server-side language (currently learning & loving Django on Python).

I would direct anyone towards the web and away from stuff like C. A basic knowledge of it all is very very handy however, but beyond that I will only go back to mastering any of that old stuff if/when a project absolutely needs it and won’t work on the web.

Just how I feel.

…Why? Web applications and regular applications serve completely different needs and uses. And with the advent of .Net, you can use programming languages for web apps.

What makes you think web applications and ‘regular’ applications serve completely different purposes? Most web apps were once desktop apps. There isn’t all that much difference between coding for browsers and coding for desktop environments.

And ever since I checked… programming languages were always the only way to make web apps.

Am I detecting Engrish?

Boooooooo. Learn C. Develop an appreciation for how things work, and get a feel for the pros of a language that is syntactically small.

I know C. There’s just nothing I want to do with it.

I’ve also touched on some assembly – I’ve learned enough about how things work. Now it’s time to learn how things get done.

Knowledge of C and other programming languages is very beneficial . . . I just wouldn’t.. do anything with them.

I think the hardest part of programming is neither the syntax nor the logic nor the semantics; it’s learning how to start a thought at the beginning and think it through to the end before trying to write it down. Nobody ever wrote good code by sitting down at the keyboard and saying “Que sera, sera.”
I agree that he should stay away from web coding until he’s learned at least one good, object-oriented, strongly-typed programming language. I’ve never seen programming languages more horrifyingly disorganized and/or single-purpose than the shit people write web pages and server-side scripts with: Ruby, Perl, PHP, Python, etc…they all suck because they’re all hacks of good languages that were made quickly to serve a single purpose, with no thought given to their quality or flexibility. Even JavaScript is bad, but at least it’s old enough (and subsidized enough) that most of its deficiencies have been addressed.

is your coding as good as your cakes?

Except, you know, that for the foreseeable future, there are half a billion things that mean quite a few programs are restricted to running locally. Anything critical will always be restricted to running locally. Network outages are a reality, and businesses are not going to want to have everyone at 0 productivity because the apps they use for work are on a hosed server. The business computer world will never return to the days of thin clients, simply because any downtime is money lost, and when an entire company has to shut down for hours at a time, that’s a HUGE amount of money lost.

Because, you know, PHP, etc, are all real programming languages

Scripting language != real programming language, such as C++, or Java.

what?

that’s the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard. a scripting language is a programming language. that is unless adding ‘real’ in front qualifies a language in some special manner of your own design.

That’s true too. I just got stuck in with PHP and reaching dead ends when I wanted to change shit. And that’s how I learned. Just gotta trudge onwards trying to grasp the best ideas for development, or at least that’s what I’ve been trying.

What books would anyone recommend for teaching about programming practices/software engineering, preferably geared towards Python, but not necessarily?

the only real difference between web apps and desktop apps is the interface in which they communicate with the user. I mean, CGI apps can be written in plain old C if you want.
I’m beginning to think the only way to do it in the programming world is to learn all round ya.

If you find something you’re extremely comfortable to achieve something with, get it done using that.

Yes, I know that scripting languages are technically programming languages. To act as if they have the same functionality, etc, as C++, though, is ridiculous. They are far easier to learn, far easier to use, and far less powerful. I can write PHP just fine, and use it effectively. However, I would not call myself a programmer. I work with Bash and PowerShell to create scripts that make my sysadmin shit go easier. Those are scripting languages – I would not call myself a programmer.

That’s a pretty huge difference. Any web app has to run inside of your browser. It has all of the limitations of your web browser, including a reliance on network connectivity… Unless you want to run the web server and keep a copy of the web app on every computer, but if you’re doing that, why develop it as a web app in the first place?

Offline web apps.

(havent/mightnt gonna read that article, just got something from google)

I wish there was some way to publicize your web-apps such that the browser can actually download the backend code & run (nevermind just store whats going on) on any computer after a browser choses to download it. If it was made possible & done right, it could be so so sweet.

I don’t think you give PHP enough credit, it is an extremely powerful programming language. If you don’t want to call yourself a programmer that’s fine, but don’t let that diminish the validity of these programming languages.

Have you written a web app, because it surely doesn’t sound like it. Or at least it doesn’t sound like you know how they work. If you’re writing it in PHP it most certainly does NOT run inside of the browser, it is running on the server. And if network connectivity is a criteria for a real application does that mean you’re excluding RPC apps or any network related application for that matter?

I’m of the strong opinion that in the future of computing we’re going to be moving away from local applications and most applications will actually be online apps, like what google docs is now only more advanced. I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft Office eventually becomes an online web application only in the somewhat immidiate future.

It is an extremely powerful scripting language. It falls short in comparison to a programming language such as C++ or Java. I’m currently writing a PHP application that analyzes and displays Cisco v9 Netflow data captured with nProbe and collected with NEye.

Are you a moron? I realize it runs on the server. I was SPECIFICALLY quoting a section where you mentioned that the difference is the interface. The interface for the end user of a web app is the browser. Are you denying this?

Most business related apps allow at least basic functionality without network support. I can still write up my documentation, program, work in excel, etc, without network connectivity.

I take it you weren’t around for when everything was done over the network using thin clients?

There’s a reason we moved away from it, to real clients.

ok, how does it fall short? because it’s not compiled code? that’s hardly a requirement of a programming language.

I’m not a moron, you said “Any web app has to run inside of your browser.” when in actuality the client or the server can do the “running”. If you meant to say something like “has to be accessed by a browser” then you would be correct. but even then there are web services which are basically web apps that doesn’t have to use a browser but still communicate over HTTP.

This argument is neither here nor there though as the main argument was when you said scripting languages were not programming languages but later corrected yourself saying that they are, just not by your vantage point. which is fine since you’re entitled to your opinion even if it is technically incorrect.

Because it isn’t as powerful. I can do quite a bit in PHP, but if I wanted to say, create an ircd, doing it in php vs. c would be a ridiculous thing to do.

(I choose this for an example on purpose – I know that there is a PHP ircd out there. I’ve used it. But it is also hugely inferior to every single c based ircd, in both performance and features)

You were SPECIFICALLY talking about the interface. Using PHP, etc, for web apps, 99.9999% of the time, you are going to be accessing them within the browser. You are either a moron, or attempting to couch your argument in semantics to attempt to gain the upper hand. It is obvious what I was referring to, and willfully misrepresenting what I say doesn’t make you more right.

I said they’re not real programming languages in my first post on this subject, and I stand by that. Technically, bash and powershell are programming languages. However, no one is going to call themselves a bash programmer, or powershell programmer, and if they did, they would be laughed at.

Scripting languages are programming languages by definition, very loose definition.

Well, obviously since I’m a girl my cooking has to be better than my coding

different tools for different jobs. just because some programming langauges perform better for certain tasks doesn’t make one more or less of a programming language. C may have more extensive libraries when it comes to standard socket programming but in the same right PHP could be considered more “powerful” in many other applications of programming. If anything you’re beating down your own argument by pointing out the fact that PHP can handle sockets and basically any other computing task you were to throw at it if you were so inclined.

This really is a dumb argument and i don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish by supposedly knocking scripting languages down a peg on your programming languages list. I really don’t care either way other than the fact that what you are declaring is incorrect. If you want to be laughed at go tell an authoritative figure in computing (maybe a CS professor if that’s what you’re studying) that scripting languages aren’t programming languages. You can even say “real” programming languages as you seem to think it makes a difference.

I’m done with this argument though as you’re pitting the truth of the matter against your opinion, which i don’t consider an authoritative source.

Actually, the PHP ircd uses a c module for sockets. It doesn’t handle it on its own.

I guess you can throw some more darts at random to try and prove your point, though.

No, it isn’t a dumb argument. You can’t discount it just because you know I’m right. Anyone who would call themselves a programmer because they know those scripting languages would be laughed at. Period.

And I’m not “studying” anything.

well i’m not familiar with your particular ircd. but what i do know is that i have done socket programming in php to interface with a server we have here at work and it worked just fine. php actually has an extensive socket library.

yes it is dumb, because you’re arguing against conventional wisdom with evidence such as “Anyone who would call themselves a programmer because they know those scripting languages would be laughed at.”

obviously

But does it work well? If it did, why would they resort to have to outside libraries?

I’m arguing against conventional wisdom? What conventional wisdom? That Bash is a programming language?

I’m out in the real world, doing real work. I’ve had people try and teach Visual Basic (not .Net) like it’s a real programming language too. Being in a position to teach doesn’t mean that you should be.
I think I’ve just now, tonight, reached the point in my life where I can just let the idiots babble… I don’t need to correct them.

KUDOS FOR ME!

I notice that the only people disagreeing with me are the people who just do scripting languages

I completely disagree with you and I mostly program in Java.

So you would call Bash a programming language?

Bash is a shell. Its supported commands and the rules that govern their syntax and semantics make a programming language.

So, you honestly think I could call myself a programmer, due to my ability to write bash scripts?

For you, as a job title, I sure hope not… It’s clear that you have very little understanding of programming even if you are capable of writing some simple programs. However, someone that spends most of their professional time writing bash scripts would be considered a programmer.
I can definitely see the point of using a book to pick up how to program. However when I learned, it was with books and sitting in front of the computer playing around, before the Web. Nowadays I think I’d probably just use web resources to learn.

There’s no point overwhelming newbies by trying to teach them ambitious methodologies and “good programming”, especially seeing as there’s new techniques and theories popping up every day and challenging the status quo.

You need to learn English before you can start writing a novel.

The newbies just need to be taught to keep taking in fresh ideas as the programming world moves pretty fast, so they can continually improve.

If you don’t look back at the code you did 1 year ago and wince, you’re doing it wrong.

what makes you think you know what i do? i’ve just been correcting you on scripting languages as you seem to have a false conception of what they are. all the classes i’ve taken at my university have dealt with and used C/C++ and Java. either that or they’ve been based on programming concepts abstract enough to apply to any procedural language.

you seem to have some kind of pride involved with programming languages though. so tell me, if scripting languages are programming languages (which you have admitted now) but they aren’t REAL programming languages what exactly is the criteria of a REAL programming language.

I’m capitalizing REAL because technically there is no difference but you seem to think there is, so i want to hear it.

I fully understand the concepts of OOP. Classes, inheritance, etc. I have programmed fully functional applications in Java, C++, etc. I started to learn C# for ASP.Net development, but decided I’d rather stick to PHP, as it is not limited by the platform. I am not a developer – I have to look at things backwards to design and create the program. I have no desire to create anything unless there is a specific need that I need filled that does not currently exist in the form of an open source or commercial program. I do not like to program, so I would never want to be a programmer. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand it.

However, said needs come about rather often in system administration tasks. But no one would ever spend the majority of their professional time writing bash scripts. They are ALL simple programs.

What false conception? You’ve yet to correct me on anything of substance. Last I checked, the only corrections you’ve made have had directly with you manipulating semantics. The letter vs the spirit, etc.

And cool, you’ve taken university classes on programming. You’re a star developer now. You’ll forgive me, I’m sure, if I don’t take your word on the subject just because you’ve had classes on it.

There is no pride involved. I am no skilled C++ developer. I know enough to create a program when I need to, but it will be slow and tedious work. In fact, if anything, the skills I have are only those in the realm of scripting languages! I know how to create bash and powershell scripts. My job demands it. I know far more PHP than I do c or java. I use it, as well as perl, on ocaision.

My stance on what is and what isn’t a programming language hasn’t changed since my first post in this thread. Scripting languages are programming languages – but only because of the letter of the definition. Someone who writes bash scripts is not a programmer. PHP, or Perl, or a similar scripting languages, is a lot closer, but still not quite there. They are scripting languages.

The difference is power, performance, flexibility, etc. About use. The how’s, when’s, where’s, and why’s of use. You would not use PHP to develop a desktop application. Or bash. Or perl. Or powershell. You could use C#. Or Java. Or C. Or C++.

Again, I am not a programmer. This is not out of some sense of pride. I would say it is for you, though. You want to believe yourself to be Job Title X. You want the respect implied with said job title. I’m secure in my position – I don’t see any need to add on to it with frills, to try and make myself seem more important.

you obviously have a hard time admitting when you’re wrong so i’ll just sum up my feelings towards this post with this emoticon:
this argument is retarded. anyone who writes command files to be executed on a machine is some type of programmer. the languages might be scripting/programming whatever but bottom line if you write program files that are executed on a machine your generic title is a programmer
Can anyone recommend good books for getting into client-side web dev? Gonna start with newest version of HTML (last time i learned it was like 10 years ago :hs) and CSS, and then move into JavaScript. SitePoint looks like they have some good books, but the HTML/CSS ones are from May ‘06 Not sure how much has changed on that front in the last 2 years

You obviously are attempting to validate yourself, and having run out of ways to attempt to do so, are resulting to just using emoticons and claiming victory without having any substance to stand on.

The hilarity of this entire situation is summed up by a true gem: The fact that you guys think a bash scripter is a programmer.

I nominate this:

Don’t run this one off. We need people like him now that Jolly is tamed.

I don’t think that using a scripting language is really programming. So based on that, my statement is 100% correct. C#, etc, can be used to program a web app, or a normal program.
Personally, I don’t think using languages or keyboards is really programming. If you aren’t keying in binary via a mechanical switch, you’re no programmer. Flipping switches gives you DIRECT access to the machine, which is much more powerful than that high level assembly stuff. That stuff isn’t programming. Its graphic design. QWERTY is for losers. All I need is up/down. It took me four hours to program this post. How long did it take you guys to type your posts? See how much more powerful my switch is than your keyboard? Losers.

you need to learn two things:

1) Syntax for the language of your choice. Once you learn one language, picking up another is quite easy, as they’re all much the same, just the syntax changes.

2) Programming methodology and logic. This is the important one and the hard one. It’s also language independent.

What a joke! All this stuff is for graphic designers. Its not programming. What he really needs to learn is efficient binary keying. Got to flip that switch wicked fast to be eleet.
My post was funny and you guys are too stupid to praise me.

Switching this post in, and the TCP/IP/HTTP stack it took to send it only took me 3 hours. BEAT THAT! BINARY IS SO POWERFUL!

Personally, I don’t think you can call yourself a programmer unless you write code that gets compiled. If it can’t crash the machine, it’s not a program, just a script.

if you write something which causes the computer to perform a task, you have programmed the computer.

It’s that simple.

the only real solution to this debate is to have these guys open up a dictionary

Not really. When you write a compiled program, your code gets fed directly into the CPU and gets processed natively. When you write a script, your script tells the interpreter to do something, and then the interpreter uses whatever code the programmers gave it to actually perform the task. You’re not in direct control of anything if you’re writing scripts.

Anyone who’s ever written compiled code knows what I’m talking about; working in a scripting language is suffocating, because the degree of freedom you have to do what you need to do in a way that makes sense for the application is very limited, and if there is no suitable pre-constructed command to do what you need to do, instead of making one, you have to switch to a different language.

Compiled code will always be better than scripts. It’s the basic principle of “if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself”, and scripting languages don’t let you do it yourself.

I agree that scripting languages are very frustrating to work in, suffocating as you put it, however, scripting is still programming.

ANY time you make it so that the computer follows a series of instructions to execute a task, you have programmed it.

Does that make all programmers equal? No. But it doesn’t mean someone who only knows how to use perl not a programmer, it just makes him a very limited programmer

And DIRECT BINARY will always be better than compiled code. You call yourself a PROGRAMMER, when really the COMPILER is the one doing all the work.

QWERTY Loser. You’re PATHETIC.
To date, I have used the following languages:

Perl
Pascal
GWBASIC
C/C++
Java
IDL
Assembler (Intel and SPARC)

I hate scripting languages, but they have their use, especially when I want to do a quick and dirty task, like quickly reading in a text catalogue, splitting out the data I’m interested in, and throwing that data back out to another program I’ve written to do something more useful.

No offense, because you’re one of the more sensible in this thread… but don’t you see the irony here?

I can write low-level code in G++, if that’s what I need to do. I can skip all of the conveniences of object-oriented programming and get down to the bits and the registers if there’s no other way to get the job done. I can’t do that in PHP.

Anyway, if your point is that Punchcards > Assembly > OOP > Scripting, where “>” == “more leetz0r”, then yes, I suppose I agree. I’m not saying I’m the ultimate programmer, but the code I write is actually getting translated into binary instructions, whereas with scripting, my code would be replaced wholesale with someone else’s binary instructions. Not to mention I wouldn’t be able to write my own assembly code in a scripting language, even if I wanted to.

nope, because so long as he ONLY knows how to use perl, he’s a limited programmer. Knowing perl, however, makes it much easier for him to pick up another few languages, and remove a lot of those limitations

That said, there is a gap between scripted languages and compiled languages that he’d still have to cross, but that’s more of a language dependent issue

whats your point? If you don’t need to do that, does that make it no longer programming?

Wait, so you’re saying that even though you have less control than keying in binary… that you are in fact having some other program generate your binary for you… that using higher level languages because they have more POWER and you don’t have to operate on a uselessly minute level makes more sense for almost every task… even if its not as ‘elite’?

zOMG!

Ok… but my point was: Isn’t every language you listed exactly similar, to the point that you think all languages are similar other than syntax and whether they manage memory?

Does it occur to you that there are more kinds of languages than that? That maybe the difference between SQL and Perl is much greater than the difference than Perl and C?

I just listed the languages I’ve used to date

and pretty much every language is the same. At this point in time, the hardest part when picking up a new language is finding out what names they called their functions by.

The biggest difference is execution time, and memory management, and for most purposes, those considerations are irrelevant.
and, i just realized, I’m overusing, the comma. Quick Peyomp! Write a function, in binary, to scan, and remove, excess, unnecessary, commas. I’ll get back, to you, in a week.

This is actually not true. You’ve only explored one branch of languages, which is why they seem the same. With the possible exception of IDL, those are all imperative languages. Kinda exciting, huh! There are lots of other kinds!

SQL is an example of a declarative language. You THINK completely differently in SQL. Its not just like any of the others you listed. You can’t know C, then figure out the syntax of SQL and you will know SQL. You have to learn to program all over again, in a declarative instead of imperative way.

But no memory management or binary keying in SQL… so I guess it doesn’t count as programming at all to some

In Binary it would take me a week.
In C it would take me an hour.
In perl it would take me a minute.

But C is more powerful than perl, right? And Binary more powerful than C.

zOMG!

quickly explain to me the difference between imperative and declarative

it’d take you a minute to strip out the commas, but only the ones which aren’t grammatically correct?

OMG! We’re on to something. That IS more complex. Its almost as if… the algorithm is the hard part of programming… and we should choose the languages that let us most easily implement the algorithm that solves the problem at hand…

and that if we don’t make a good language selection for the problem, that we are a bad programmer! Binary and Assembly and C would SUCK for your problem! Perl would work great! Maybe we could use something like Prolog! OMG the possibilities!

Wow… this is like, ground breaking stuff!

But oh no… will my friends make fun of me if I don’t manage my own memory?

Wikipedia is better than me.

seems much the same to me, you’d just go about attacking your problem in a different manner.

From the article, it seems declarative languages let the compiler/language determine how to compute the simpler problems you give it, so that you can focus on the larger problem at hand, much in the same way you’d build subroutines to break down the problem in an imperative language

I could be wrong

some days I hate IDL

I really wish it was more like C in some ways, where you have to declare array sizes/types, and if you deviated from the proper syntax without declaring beforehand (typecasting) it’d throw a compile error, instead of spending 45 minutes computing the first task, only to crash on a typo in the second task

Specifying precisely what you want in a SQL query is a different thinking process than specifying the algorithm to get there. You break things down in both, but you do so differently. Knowing how to split a problem into three functions doesn’t usually help you write a SQL query.

Yes, but knowing the relationship between input and output does.

If I have a list of objects, and I want to separate them according to a value associated with them, then it just depends on what functions I have available to me.

In IDL, I’d likely go ‘wgreater = where (x.value gt minvalue)’
and then say ‘xgreater = x[wgreater]‘

In C, I’d likely allocate a contiguous memory space, keep a count of how many I’d found and placed, and then run through the list of objects, storing a reference to the object satisfying the criteria in memory, and then increnting the count. Then I could run through the references and access the objects that way.

zOMG… its almost as though IDL is MORE POWERFUL at that task than C! But will you lose your man card? Will the 17 year old programmers think you’re cool anymore if you solve a problem in a couple minutes in a higher level language when the MANLY way to do it is to spend hours at a lower level? After all, when you’re 17 being manly is all about memory allocation, and not getting things done or building beautiful systems that solve difficult problems. No 17 year old can do that, so memory allocation is really important at that fragile stage of development.

Right but… even if you know all the functions you have available to you in SQL, you’re not going to transition directly from imperative langauges. You’ll bang your head against the wall. Its a different kind of problem solving.

Maybe. One day I’ll probably find out, however, I’ve always gone about problem solving (or at least tried to), by thinking about where I am, and where I want to be, and then trying to find the most direct route there. I suspect that approach is valid for any programming language.

NO! ITS NOT! Thats what I’m saying In declarative programming you can’t do that. Instead you have to think, “What EXACTLY do I want, and how do I define it to lead the database system there.”

The problem solving experience is relevant, but its just not the same and at first the difference is jarring.

the way you’ve now described it makes it sound like a PITA to me

Although, once you know how the database system operates, then it becomes simple again.

congratulations, you’ve just expressed some understanding of the difference between and high-level and low-level programming. yes that’s right, programming.

it’s funny how you and that taco bell guy both start your arguments with “personally i think” or “in my opinion”… no offense, but i don’t really care what your guys opinions happen to be. i’m happy that you express them as opinions and personal beliefs, as opposed to p052342o3 who expresses his opinions as absolute fact; but in this instance you and chalpuas opinions are not aligned with reality. you can confirm this by talking with any professional in the field of computer science.
Actually, C is a high level language too! It was conceived that way. C++ is a high level language. Listen to Bjorne call it that.

They’re just not quite high enough for lots of problems.

I was able to wrap my mind around SQL, but it took a little while. What I CAN’T DO is get my mind around purely functional programming. Ever try to learn LISP? I did. Twice. It won’t stick.

C/C++/C#/Java/etc are high level programming languages, my friend. ASM, etc, are not.

That means that interpreted languages are entirely different than simply being “high level”, and the fact that they are interpreted is a major part of why I don’t consider them to really be programming languages. Someone else did the programming, and you’re creating a script that calls that programming.

I gave it a brief read, i’ll have to come back to it later

thanks captain obvious

it’s just another level of abstraction

And yet in C, you’re just controlling the compiler. You are scripting the compiler. And so your distinction is arbitrary. And you are a cliche. Do you think people think you’re cool because your programs compile and you say so? Not the case. Instead, you sound like a 17 year old who has never written anything over 1000 lines, or solved any real problems whatsoever.

1) Get a dictionary
2) Look up programming
3) Post a retraction

exactly. an ASM programmer could make the same lame statements talking to a C programmer.

that is why I originally stated this whole argument is based more in pride/ego than reality.

And the very statements intended to make them look cool instead make them look like inexperienced teenagers.

I’d say a skilled programmer would use whatever language was best suited for the task.

Have you not read the thread? I’ve stated multiple times that I know scripting languages are considered programming languages by definition.

However, I contend that there is a reason they have a special label applied to them – scripting languages – rather than just simply being called programming languages.

It isn’t a matter of pride for me. I am not a programmer. I work with PHP, when doing any sort of scripting, or bash/powershell for sysadmin stuff. By my own definition, I am a scripter. I’m not trying to sound cool, or act like I’m some amazing hardcore developer. I write scripts to interact with programs I use for sysadmin stuff, and sometimes write php frontends. All I know are scripting languages.

Are you not grasping the idea that the code I write in C++ ultimately ends up as binary code that runs directly in the CPU, whereas code I write in JavaScript always has to go through an interpreter that substitutes its own code in place of my own every time the script executes?

Actually, it’s incorrect to even use the word “execute” when talking about a script, because all that happens is the interpreter reads the code and then runs different code that isn’t derived from, or based on, my code. Writing a script is like telling someone else to write and compile a program for you.

That’s the same beef I have with frameworks, btw. It’s one thing that my high-level OOP code goes through a compiler where it’s broken down into more and simpler components until it reaches the level of CPU instructions and then gets stored in a binary file; it’s something entirely different that my script code is replaced with someone else’s code that does not necessarily reflect what I intended the program to do.

Code that directly compiles and executes doesn’t scale. You can’t do big projects that way successfully. Its fine for hobby stuff, but it makes no sense for accomplishing goals with limited time or money, for almost all applications.

My father in law is a master scrimshawer. He is amazing – he does really accurate historical designs on powder horns with just a pocket knife and shaved pencil lead. Everything he ever makes is by hand. He has very few tools in his shed. He is also a master carver. He hand-crafted, with hand tools only, an intricately carved desk for the governor of kentucky that was so good he was made a Kentucky Colonol over it (right there with Bill Clinton and Colonel Sanders).

But how long do you think it would take him to fashion a house using those techniques? When he built his house, he used power tools. He used a nail gun.

For small stuff – absolute control at every level of detail is fine. But for achieving goals of any scale the same techniques do not work whatsoever. You don’t widdle a house, and you don’t write anything important in a lower level language than you absolutely have to.

Once again: the ‘execution’ thing is utterly arbitrary, as you are just scripting tasks an assembly programmer would have to do manually. And you’re missing the point by clinging to this pseudo-manly hold-up.

you and chalupa are too much

Did you just make the claim that you cannot do a large scale project with C++?
wow.. there’s a lot of egos in here

to the threadstarter, I’d recommend searching Google for some introductory Computer Science powerpoint slides. If you’re lucky, you’ll be able to get some programming assignments for the entire semester, so you have some goal to reach. Maybe try to complete one assignment every 2 weeks? They should get increasingly difficult, and you’ll probably be proficient in a language when you complete the course.

With that said, what kind of programming do you want to do? Web programming is different than server programming. If you want to learn good design, learn C# or Java. They will both teach you the principles of Object-Oriented Programming.

If you want to learn web development, learn PHP. Go to sites you like to look at and study the source code. That’s how TurkeyChicken started, and now he’s a full-time web developer ( is one of his websites).

If you really want to learn programming, though, you’ll learn how to program in several languages. Think of them as tools in your toolbox; some are better than others for certain tasks.

C++ is terrible for large projects. You would only use it if you had a compelling reason to do so, and then you would suffer for it. Sometimes its the only way to go, and thats the only time you would use it. Which is almost never.

But lets face it: you’ve never architected anything, so you have no idea what I’m talking about, right?

wait, what?

so what are you proposing be used for large projects?

Ummm, what project? Language selection depends completely on requirements. Lets pick Google.

MOSTLY PYTHON. The math parts are C++. They try to keep as much in Python as possible, because they recognize that every line of code is a liability, and every line of C++ is more of a liability than Python.

If the whole thing were C++, how successful do you think they would be?

well if we’re talking web then i’ll be quicker to agree with you; you just said large projects in general.

Let’s pick another hugely biased example: The Unreal Engine!

C++.

Very much C++. And they have to have some of the best C++ talent in the world to pull it off, and they have an enormous budget. C++ is a good choice for them because they can’t realistically choose anything else.

Yes I did, and I meant large projects in general. You really think of Google as a ‘web app’ ? Its the biggest application in existence. Nobody does more than google.

Wow. I don’t even know what to say.

I do know what to say to this, however:

1. Cool story.

2. You’re right that if your FIL hand-carved his house out of a solid block of redwood, he’d probably die before he finished (not to mention he’d have some impressive RSI in his hands). However, the difference between a cheap house and a good house — assuming the materials are the same — is that the cheap house is only assembled using a ripsaw and a nailgun, whereas the good house is assembled using those tools when a perfect fit isn’t necessary, and using a handsaw, planer, torpedo level, chisel, sandpaper, and a screwdriver when a perfect fit is required. No, the roof trusses don’t need to be hand-fitted perfectly to keep the roof from collapsing, but the window trim is going to look like shit (and leak) if you don’t do it just right.

To relate that back to coding, a language that compiles into binary code gives me the flexibility to get down and dirty and spend a week getting something just right if it’s really important (like a loop that runs millions of times a day, for example) or to gloss over the intricacies (like making a scrollbar work) if it doesn’t need to be customized to the nth degree. Scripting languages don’t let you do that, because you can’t go below the level of abstraction offered by the script interpreter; you’re stuck doing it the easy, stupid way, no matter how important it is to do something the hard, smart way.

I don’t know how many times I ran into something in JavaScript where I really needed Function X to work a very specific way to do what I needed to do, and when I asked my friend who writes JS in his sleep, he’d either say “your entire approach is wrong, you have to do it this other way in JS” or “no, you can’t do that in JS”. Well, in C++ I could make it do that, because I could go so far as to write assembly code if I really needed to — or at least write very simple, repetitive C code that didn’t rely on anyone else’s assumptions.

You can say “well you shouldn’t be using a scripting language for things that important”, and if you said that, I would completely agree. I’m not saying that scripting languages don’t have their uses, but you can’t call yourself a programmer if you don’t at least know how to dig around in bits and registers, even if you never run into a situation where you need to — and personally, I think you should work in a medium that gives you that flexibility anyway, because never is a very long time and a very unlikely outcome.
I agree with Peyomp on this. Why would you ever use C++ if you didn’t need its speed and ability to micromanage memory? The only reason I advocated learning C earlier in this thread was purely academic. I think that knowing the historical side of computer science contributes just as much to the advancement of the science as a good knowledge of the concepts.

How is a line of C++ more of a liability than a line of Python? Is it because a bad Python script can’t crash the server?

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